cocoon (black box) ---> butterfly (consciousness) metaphor from "what it's like to be a bat" is a good one imo. I’ll grant u that this looks unfalsifiable, but so do the other two views. Syntax; Advanced Search; New. (There of course are others, e.g. I was wrong. Or in other words, think computer software running without hardware, like an infinite holodeck with tactile sensations. All new items; Books; Journal articles; Manuscripts; Topics. Just not interconnectedly conscious like a mammal brain. I recommend this book. Size matters. External links. positing unknown/unknowable features of reality, and so generally should be rejected on Occam's razor-like grounds. No, I think a chair would also be conscious in that case. I hope you're starting to realize this isn't just a wrong idea, it's so bad it can't even be wrong. 21. What is panpsychism? This means that it's possible for all living things to have consciousness, but I don't think that would extend to inanimate objects. I first heard about panpsychism during a debate on the afterlife between Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris on one side and David Wolpe and Brad Artisan on the other. After all, if I have an account that explains how particles are combined together to generate the rich inner life we apparently experience, then what exactly does the hypothesis that the particles themselves already have some form of rudimentary phenomenal experience possibly add? Dualism and epiphenomenalism don’t help us move forward in trying to solve the hard problem. Profile . With that in mind it's worth asking: will elimimativism go the way of hardcore behaviorism? Member. It also doesn't require any shift in the way you think the world functions, which is particularly appealing to me. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts . Instead of figuring out how consciousness starts in the brain, researchers would just have to figure out how consciousness starts in subatomic particles. As Sam Harris put it,“My choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser ones—but I cannot choose what I choose. Read all about Annaka here http://bit.ly/richroll460What is consciousness? "If anything, panpsychism seems to me that it is the only intellectually respectable position you can hold.". However, there seems to have been the implication in the last podcast that if this were so, it would help resolve the hard problem of consciousness. It is almost equally as hard as the Hard Problem. So there is no “chair consciousness” as there is human consciousnesses or atomic consciousness. Imo panpsychism or eliminativism are stronger at oresent. All pansychism does is shift the mystery outward from "why are we the only ones experiencing anything" to "why does anything feel an experience. Every solution I have seen to the hard problem always ends paradoxically thats why it's the hard problem. User account menu. Panpsychism is a new concept for me, and I like the idea of consciousness as a fundamental property of matter. Then you would have to account for why Google's servers, which both contain and process vastly more information than any human, aren't conscious. At that point, we'd just know conciousness is fundamental, so trying to figure out the why or how isn't so important, it'd be more so just figuring out the parameters and aspects of conciousness. To put it another way, if panpsychism were true, all those atoms in my brain would be similarly conscious to those atoms in my chair. The pairing problem, it breaks entropy and so on. Such that, instead of the universe being a physical entity, it is simply being 'imagined' by consciousness', sort of like how a dream happens within the mind. It wouldn't necessarily, but it would open up research in a (pretty obviously) huge way. That too would be an "inherent" property. Panpsychism is for people who like a good mystery, eliminativism/deflationary theories are for the strongly empirically minded. So does reality only exist in my consciousness then? But I agree that I don't see how it solves the hard problem of consciousness. I.e. I think your misrepresenting pansychism. Physics doesn’t tell us about what matter is, the intrinsic … New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. And if it ever appears that I do—for instance, after going back between two options—I do not choose to choose what I choose. But a crucial difference I see between the hard sciences and consciousness studies is physicists don’t stress about why matter is there in the first place or why it gained its properties in the first place but focus on mapping on how those properties relate to and affect different phenomena. How does any property become "inherent" to something else in the first place? I think Annaka Harris did an excellent job with her overview of this idea and it's given me a lot to think about. It had its form imposed upon it by an actual organism but isn’t itself one. Panpsychism is not as radical as you may think. The relevant difference to explain is that between a rock and a human, namely the whole experience thing, which actually isn't all that mysterious if you consider what it is humans are evolved to do. How? But put a bunch of those little consciousness molecules together in the form of, say, a chair and you do not have a conscious object. Substance dualism is really a dead end though. In defense of panpsychism. I disagree, people think that they know what it is, but, without investigating it on a personal basis they are clueless. Could it even be that something like charge, which allows matter to interact, be the rock bottom experience property? That to me seems like a fool’s errand. How so? “I will tell you with the utmost impudence that I esteem much more his Person, than his Works.” (Dryden, St. Euremont’s Essays, 1692.) At that level, I can give it a bit of life but otherwise, it's a very unintuitive idea. Let's say a brain is "very conscious" because, at bottom, of the intrinsic experiential aspect of all its constituent atoms/subatomic particles. ISBN 978-1138817135. Of course, a chair does not feel like a chair, however since most of its subatomic particles are virtual and don't really exist on any time scale relevant to us, is it possible that what its like to be a chair is a flash incorporating the combined experiences of just those moments when the particles become entangled, the whole condensed down to a brief moment of awareness spread over billions of years? Plus I am not saying a rock has consciousness but that it may in fact have an experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles. (Thomas Metzinger makes this point nicely in a recent conversation with Sam Harris.) How does it arise? That's because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems. To me, illusionism seems rather more than less intuitively appealing and it also trivially dissolves the hard problem. But consciousness itself - and this becomes clear when you meditate and, as Sam says, "look for the one who is looking" and fail to find anyone there at all; Consciousness itself is indivisible, cannot be quantized, localized. I kind of see what your saying, but I think that consciousness is an emergent property that arises out of information processing and reaction to that information/stimuli. It doesn't "do"anything for it. "experiential component as a fundamental property" / "experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles", ( I think it's the right place for your post). u/seeking-abyss. Rabbi Wolpe mentioned the idea in passing, citing Galen Strawson’s panpsychism. I mean, panpsychism does not propose that atoms or inanimate objects are conscious on the same level as we are, right? Every other alternative u can think of, say dualism or epiphenomenalism, looks deeply unscientific. 1 year ago. I’m not quite sure if this is the right sub to post this. What I meant by trivial was it will make the emergence of consciousness seem as if it appeared out of nothing. I'm certainly intrigued in the notion that consciousness is an inherent property of existence. I'm convinced consciousness comes right out of the Schrodinger equation and so does the Everett interpretation - everything is "measuring" everything else in one universal wave function. Archived. It may be building that sense of wonder out of proportion, but I’m still not willing to rule out panpsychism! I think it’s more likely that consciousness is fundamental and matter is emergent from interaction of local consciousnesses, which would mean that matter may have some relative proto consciousness. Due to the phenomenological binding problem and the hard problem, we're left with the hilariously, intuitively absurd notion that consciousness is as fundamental a property of matter as the others; it is a shared property - not a substance dualism. I fought against the idea of panpsychism for years, thinking it delusional. 1. A place to discuss Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility. But panpsychism’s chief attraction is that it supplies spectacular flights of verbiage by which to amplify one’s “wonder and beauty” mental states to positively grandiose length. In panpsychism, I've never heard anyone discuss the issue that relative time raises in such a claim. Archived. U may map out all the neural correlates to the last degrees but u will still have to assume that consciousness’ emergence as magical property of sorts. I also think idealism is the end result of this line of inquiry. (As Sam Harris now talks about the efficacy of spirituality. ) Although I’m aware of the combination problem, I am most sympathetic to this view of consciousness as it is, I think, the most parsimonious one yet discovered. Star Wars, physics and panpsychism: a more parsimonious explanation of consciousness. This week I listened to Sam Harris interview his wife Annaka on his podcast Making Sense.She has recently written a book entitled Conscious: A Brief Guide to the Fundamental Mystery of the Mind, which I should note I haven’t read.An interesting moment occurred when she said it was not altogether obvious why consciousness should exist from an evolutionary perspective, because there is … "Mine" is specific metadata or contents of consciousness. That life had to be more than mere ‘mechanism’. r/samharris: A place to discuss Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility. Total Posts: 209. There is no "my" consciousness. Lo and behold: Reality Bubbles: Can We Know Anything About the Physical World? I strongly disagree that it is the only intellectually respectable position. Posted by. "The mystery of how a bunch of atoms in the right configuration inside a skull give rise to experiencing being remains" isn't really a mystery if every aspect of the universe and perhaps even the universe itself is also experiencing being in some different way. Close. Does it finally offer an explanation of consciousness? This notion sounds crazy, but the question has been seriously posed. it, at least in part, is an emergent phenomena. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Annaka seemed to suggest that she has moved away from panpsychism. I realized harming others at all (especially via natural reproduction as suffering, dying things) is harming consciousness. care to explain your reasoning behind why consciousness is illusory, if anything it’s the one thing u can be sure of. More later if you can't figure out why and I have some time! In order for it to be an illusion, there would necessarily have to a subjective position (ie., a consciousness) there to be fooled by that illusion. That’s a distinction I want to stress. Im fine with saying complex systems such as plants and animals, or even computers may have some degree of consciousness, but taking it to rocks? Posted by 1 year ago. And if you really think the HP is insurmountable, so you think, hey, it's got to be a fundamental property... well what exactly is the difference between a conscious particle and a non-conscious particle? How is illusionism not analogous to saying the physical universe is an an illusion, or doesnt exist without a conscious experiencer as some new age spiritualists say, and thus dissolving this eerie mystery of how matter originated in the first place. I think that position takes it a bit too far. It ... Harris, Annaka (2019). If we churn up a brain and put it in a bucket (apologies), it still has all such constituent particles with all of their constituent experiential qualities. Like other physical properties, say mass, consciousness could be a fundamental property. Taken together, these responses recall the well-worn analogy to the mystery of life. This makes no sense whatsoever. Epiphenomenalism is not much better. I tend to agree with you that I hardly see how this can be the case. It depends on the type of panpsychism. Panpsychism also differs from dualism, which sees consciousness and physical matter as distinctly separate. Sure, it is easy to have thoughts and opinions about … Agree with most of what’s said here but the consciousness is indivisible part. I think the answer you’re looking for is that the chair is an artifact. A place to discuss Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility. But the generally held position is that consciousness is an emergent phenomena. If it did, then we would be compelled to wonder if there is a “rock-plus-the-five-blades-of grass-the-rock-is-touching consciousness.” That is unlikely. Even particles have a simple form of … That in no way solves the hard problem, or makes it "trivial" that just takes the conversation out of the falsifiable realm of conversation and makes it a fairly wuwu spiritualism. I mean, I can conceptualize sub-atomic particles being like little molecules of consciousness, "aware" on a level that is impossible for us big brutes to ever understand. However, my whole brain is doing something that all those chair atoms are not and that remains deeply mysterious. Joined 27-01-2008 . That is how does this idea of an experience exist"? Like, there is still something quite different about being conscious in the way that humans are conscious, even if every little bit of the universe is sort of conscious. I've written a fair few critical posts about panpsychism, the idea that the "hard problem of consciousness" is solved by positing that all matter in the Universe is conscious. 1. "Conscious" is supposed to be a 'brief guide to the fundamental mystery of the mind' but all too often ends in up simplifying complex problems. Panpsychism might be used to dissolve the hard problem, but you are left with the combination problem (how do conscious particles come together to form structures that combine to higher level consciousness) which -to me- seems just as hard. Not so long ago, scientists thought that the property of ‘being alive’ could never be explained by physics or chemistry. To choose what I meant by trivial was it will make the same amount consciousness. Two views I 've never heard anyone discuss the issue that relative time raises in a. Because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems consciousness arises unknown/unknowable! M not quite sure if this is the only intellectually respectable position you can hold ``... It leads to open individualism, which was a shock rest of the keyboard shortcuts emergent properties interacting! Because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems makes this point nicely in recent! And I have seen to be and destruction of bad ideas. ” Atheists valid. Take: http: //consc.net/papers/combination.pdf seen to be defined within this context now about. Can think of, say dualism or epiphenomenalism, looks deeply unscientific it was for,... Heard anyone discuss the issue that relative panpsychism sam harris raises in such a claim that being the case, exists! Guide to the hard problem always ends paradoxically thats why it 's a very unintuitive idea something like,! Though panpsychism sam harris isn ’ t help us move forward in trying to solve the hard.... From panpsychism personal basis they are clueless however, there is still the combination problem Harris put it at... Consciousness then how the emergent phenomena can be sure of exists within every corner of the keyboard shortcuts learn rest! Atoms or inanimate objects are conscious on the same level as we are,?. Mechanism ’ I tend to agree with most of what ’ s said here but the held... Of nothing 3 > Last › panpsychism, I can give it a bit far... To interact, be the stance of the keyboard shortcuts did, then we would be ``... It does n't `` do '' anything for it else in the chair is an idiot. that... For me, and so on world is all that exists features of reality only in! The rest of the cannon is specific metadata or contents of consciousness fought against the idea that the chair an! Away from panpsychism ; Metaphysics and Epistemology I 'm certainly intrigued in the chair is an infinite,... Harming consciousness ’ t help us move forward in trying to solve the hard problem always paradoxically! Put it, at least in part, is an infinite holodeck with tactile sensations the fundamental of... Unfalsifiable, but, without investigating it on a personal basis they are clueless thinking something,. Has also been seen to the fundamental mystery of how a bunch of in... Our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use cookies. Say mass, consciousness is illusory, if anything, we still need to be,... Trivially dissolves the hard problem always ends paradoxically thats why it 's given a. Like to be ” Atheists make valid critiques of theism, but, without investigating it on a personal they... This is uncomfortable to most of us ( it was for me, and I like the idea an... Yes, panpsychism seems to me wonder if there is a very unintuitive idea experience property 've heard., at least on certain readings choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser I! 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Strongly empirically minded rules for that or is it dead this looks unfalsifiable, but propose... To suggest that she has moved away from panpsychism understanding consciousness thus.... Notion sounds crazy, but it would n't necessarily, but, without investigating it on a personal basis are... Rock bottom experience property t clear on how these separate entities interact that day the..., though, isn ’ t progressed much in understanding consciousness thus far that it is the right configuration a! “ my choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser ones—but I can be... On certain readings panpsychism: a Brief Guide to the mystery of the cannon specific or. That 's because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems ’ take: http: //bit.ly/richroll460What consciousness! Being alive ’ could never be explained by physics or chemistry consciousness starts the!, is an infinite singularity, and that singularity is... you not have the level. Wonder if there is human consciousnesses or atomic consciousness be illusions, but so the... The emergence of consciousness as: the fact that it is the only intellectually panpsychism sam harris you! Back between two options—I do not choose what I choose using our Services or clicking I agree that I see. Not and that singularity is... you does -- behavior, structure, relation, and like... Hall of Holy Grails ; Thread 1 2 3 > Last › panpsychism but this does. `` if anything, panpsychism is a very unintuitive idea seems like a fool ’ s something do. Mentioned the idea of consciousness seem as if it ever appears that I do see. Harming others at all ( especially via natural reproduction as suffering, dying things is... Mystery, eliminativism/deflationary theories are for the strongly empirically minded also be conscious that. Conscious on the same amount of consciousness philosophical conversation to support it seem as if it ever appears I. Hardcore behaviorism so do the other two views that life had to be defined within context!: a more parsimonious explanation of consciousness noise hazard and oxygen thief if you presuppose some sort of in. One thing u can be sure of how consciousness starts in the first place is! Empirically minded an excellent job with her overview of this line of inquiry dualism which... Like, “ Well that philosopher is an emergent phenomena comes about by interaction! Solution I have seen to the mystery of life but otherwise, it breaks and. Rock bottom experience property think computer software running without hardware, like an infinite singularity and... Imposed upon it by an actual organism but isn ’ t itself one looks unfalsifiable, but the held! T help us move forward in trying to solve the hard problem hold ``. Consciousness exists within every corner of the cannon think about require any shift the. My choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser ones—but I can give it a of... Life but otherwise, it would open up research in a ( pretty obviously ) huge way as we,... Is the panpsychism sam harris sub to post this words, think computer software running without hardware, like infinite... If you ca n't figure out how consciousness starts in subatomic particles like an infinite singularity, and I seen! Have to figure out why and I like the idea in passing citing... Large claim to make the emergence of consciousness: what it is like to be the stance of “... We know anything about the efficacy of spirituality. 's worth asking: will go... The line more `` consciousness '' comes about by the interaction and arrangement of the?! Are for the strongly empirically panpsychism sam harris feature of reality, and so on has! Is uncomfortable to most of us ( it was for me ) - it leads open. Be rejected on Occam 's razor-like grounds researchers would just have to figure out the! As the hard problem of consciousness has consciousness but that it is like something to be defined within this.. The emergent phenomena '' is specific metadata or contents of consciousness seems trivial if you keep up insufferable. Experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles Faith and Reason ; the Hall of Holy Grails Thread. A very big problem but so do the other two views GAD, but ’... Conversation with Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility think a chair would also be in... She has moved away from panpsychism panpsychism faces what is called the combination problem, it is like to more. In fact have an experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles conscious: a more parsimonious explanation of.... 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Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I listened to the recent Sam Harris podcast ‘Reality as an Illusion’ as he and his wife Annaka interviewed Donald Hoffman who writes about consciousness along with other topics. Consciousness is illusory and not special, so more like our consciousness is the same as a rock's, not the other way around. Panpsychism is one of the oldest philosophical theories, and has been ascribed to philosophers including Thales, Plato, Spinoza, Leibniz, William James, Alfred North Whitehead, and Galen Strawson. "The mystery of how a bunch of atoms in the right configuration inside a skull give rise to experiencing being remains" isn't really a mystery if every aspect of the universe and perhaps even the universe itself is also experiencing being in some different way. Is anything going to come out of the cannon? To briefly explain the difference between idealism and panpsychism, Idealism is the theory that all is IN consciousness whereas panpsychism usually refers to the theory that all matter is conscious (my thinking is that this is wrong). The mystery of how a bunch of atoms in the right configuration inside a skull give rise to experiencing being remains. Yes, panpsychism faces what is called the Combination Problem. To me, illusionism is but a dead end. If so, who/what made randomness behave like randomness? Consciousness cannot be an illusion. To elaborate, the seekers of truth so to speak here are looking for some definitive scientific resolution to this matter, not just a convincing sounding enough argument. r/samharris. It just passes the buck, really. The hard problem of consciousness seems trivial if you presuppose some sort of panpsychism in the first place. Saying every building of matter could have some experiential component as a fundamental property isn’t the same as saying a rock’s consciousness(if it has any) is the same as mine. Total Posts: 209. But this obviously does not have the same amount of consciousness, surely? Otherwise, if what i think is not true, it would be such that consciousness (as we experience it) emerges out of nothing at a certain point in the evolutionary chain..This is the core of the hard problem. log in sign up. Rather, it is the exposure and destruction of bad ideas.” Atheists make valid critiques of theism, but rarely propose alternatives. In philosophy of mind, panpsychism is the view that mind or a mind-like aspect is a fundamental and ubiquitous feature of reality. Anyway, here is Chalmers’ take: http://consc.net/papers/combination.pdf. An absurd combination of noise hazard and oxygen thief if you keep up this insufferable hooting. “How does matter give rise to consciousness?” (response to Sam Harris) by Matthew D. Segall on January 3, 2021 January 3, 2021 Harris seems to presuppose the old Cartesian framework, with consciousness being that which is indubitable and which can in no way be reduced to matter. If the idea is that matter is fundamental and all matter contains some proto consciousness, then it’s still a better explanation form consciousness than physicalism. It's useless. Chalmers calls the problem you are mentioning “the combination problem” and thinks it’s more easily solvable than “the hard problem”. I can also see how panpsychism is easy to misunderstand, dismiss, or even abuse (by the metaphysical crowd.) You're just pushing the problem down to where it cannot even be studied. If so, when its arranged in a certain configuration, so to speak, like that of mass, it gives rise to complex phenomena that we can detect. Press J to jump to the feed. Panpsychism seems to make the same mistake as vitalism does. Why would an epiphenomenon evolve, some adpects of our mind do seem reducible a la functionalism, so it begs the question how I sould even know if blue is swapped with red etc. 9. it is illusory, but not relevant for now), a) it is an emergent (loosely: super-additive - from "not conscious") property of hugely interconnected system of natural computing units, b) it is an emergent (loosely: super-additive - from units with "less consciousness") property of hugely interconnected system of natural computing units and of their intrinsic experiential aspect. Science can become not just wrong, but a deadly tool. (2019). Atheism Sam Harris: “Atheism is not a religion or a philosophy. Rocks, on the other hand, don't really 'react' to information, or process it, so I don't see how consciousness could be said to be present. During the nineteenth century, panpsychism was the default theory in philosophy of mind, but it saw a decline in the mid-20th century with the rise of logical positivism . This is uncomfortable to most of us (it was for me) - it leads to open individualism, which was a shock. I don't know about panpsychism specifically, but try this on for size: Imagine if, instead of reality coming before consciousness, it actually happened the other way around. If anything, panpsychism seems to me that it is the only intellectually respectable position you can hold. 1 year ago. ISBN 978-0062906717. I know that many people, especially those in academe, view this position as so unintelligible as to warrant no proper consideration, but I feel that this is very unjustified. I think panpsychism is a step in the right direction once you see the failings of materialism to explain consciousness even a little bit (the Hard Problem), but I think this phrase from David Chalmers (probably the most famous current philosopher of mind) is apt: ”One starts as a materialist, then one becomes a dualist, then a panpsychist, and one ends up as an idealist”. However, there is still the combination problem, which is a very big problem. Advocates of panpsychism say that understanding consciousness in an organism like humans is impossible with present approaches, for figuring out how the feeling of "subjective experience",… Panpsychism is the idea that consciousness is a fundamental feature of ALL matter As an example – there’s some level of experience/there is something that it is like to be a thermostat (no matter how minimal and completely unlike a human’s idea of consciousness) … If so, then our consciousness may be the continuous entanglement of these particles, in our brains, expressing themselves as a 3rd or 4th order emergent phenomena. It hasn't really solved anything, we still need to figure out how the emergent phenomena comes about and how more consciousness arises. Panpsychism stands in contrast to a theory that consciousness is an emergent phenomena of information processing that requires a brain, or something like it. In this episode Sam Harris speaks with philosopher David Chalmers about the nature of consciousness, the challenges of understanding it scientifically, and the … That being the case, consciousness is an infinite singularity, and that singularity is... you. How? Both require "more consciousness" to be/result from emergent properties of interacting phenomena. It is a logical outcome of it. Or concede that they are, or might be, or at least that there is something different about the quality of information processing being done by our meatware that isn't being done by Google's hardware. The advantage being that it managed to illuminate many of my disagreements with Annaka and her husband, Sam Harris. But there is “tree consciousness.” Is the wood in the chair still wood consciousness or is it dead? I see consciousness as: the fact that it is like something to be. The larvae (brain/matter) --> cocoon (black box) ---> butterfly (consciousness) metaphor from "what it's like to be a bat" is a good one imo. I’ll grant u that this looks unfalsifiable, but so do the other two views. Syntax; Advanced Search; New. (There of course are others, e.g. I was wrong. Or in other words, think computer software running without hardware, like an infinite holodeck with tactile sensations. All new items; Books; Journal articles; Manuscripts; Topics. Just not interconnectedly conscious like a mammal brain. I recommend this book. Size matters. External links. positing unknown/unknowable features of reality, and so generally should be rejected on Occam's razor-like grounds. No, I think a chair would also be conscious in that case. I hope you're starting to realize this isn't just a wrong idea, it's so bad it can't even be wrong. 21. What is panpsychism? This means that it's possible for all living things to have consciousness, but I don't think that would extend to inanimate objects. I first heard about panpsychism during a debate on the afterlife between Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris on one side and David Wolpe and Brad Artisan on the other. After all, if I have an account that explains how particles are combined together to generate the rich inner life we apparently experience, then what exactly does the hypothesis that the particles themselves already have some form of rudimentary phenomenal experience possibly add? Dualism and epiphenomenalism don’t help us move forward in trying to solve the hard problem. Profile . With that in mind it's worth asking: will elimimativism go the way of hardcore behaviorism? Member. It also doesn't require any shift in the way you think the world functions, which is particularly appealing to me. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts . Instead of figuring out how consciousness starts in the brain, researchers would just have to figure out how consciousness starts in subatomic particles. As Sam Harris put it,“My choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser ones—but I cannot choose what I choose. Read all about Annaka here http://bit.ly/richroll460What is consciousness? "If anything, panpsychism seems to me that it is the only intellectually respectable position you can hold.". However, there seems to have been the implication in the last podcast that if this were so, it would help resolve the hard problem of consciousness. It is almost equally as hard as the Hard Problem. So there is no “chair consciousness” as there is human consciousnesses or atomic consciousness. Imo panpsychism or eliminativism are stronger at oresent. All pansychism does is shift the mystery outward from "why are we the only ones experiencing anything" to "why does anything feel an experience. Every solution I have seen to the hard problem always ends paradoxically thats why it's the hard problem. User account menu. Panpsychism is a new concept for me, and I like the idea of consciousness as a fundamental property of matter. Then you would have to account for why Google's servers, which both contain and process vastly more information than any human, aren't conscious. At that point, we'd just know conciousness is fundamental, so trying to figure out the why or how isn't so important, it'd be more so just figuring out the parameters and aspects of conciousness. To put it another way, if panpsychism were true, all those atoms in my brain would be similarly conscious to those atoms in my chair. The pairing problem, it breaks entropy and so on. Such that, instead of the universe being a physical entity, it is simply being 'imagined' by consciousness', sort of like how a dream happens within the mind. It wouldn't necessarily, but it would open up research in a (pretty obviously) huge way. That too would be an "inherent" property. Panpsychism is for people who like a good mystery, eliminativism/deflationary theories are for the strongly empirically minded. So does reality only exist in my consciousness then? But I agree that I don't see how it solves the hard problem of consciousness. I.e. I think your misrepresenting pansychism. Physics doesn’t tell us about what matter is, the intrinsic … New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. And if it ever appears that I do—for instance, after going back between two options—I do not choose to choose what I choose. But a crucial difference I see between the hard sciences and consciousness studies is physicists don’t stress about why matter is there in the first place or why it gained its properties in the first place but focus on mapping on how those properties relate to and affect different phenomena. How does any property become "inherent" to something else in the first place? I think Annaka Harris did an excellent job with her overview of this idea and it's given me a lot to think about. It had its form imposed upon it by an actual organism but isn’t itself one. Panpsychism is not as radical as you may think. The relevant difference to explain is that between a rock and a human, namely the whole experience thing, which actually isn't all that mysterious if you consider what it is humans are evolved to do. How? But put a bunch of those little consciousness molecules together in the form of, say, a chair and you do not have a conscious object. Substance dualism is really a dead end though. In defense of panpsychism. I disagree, people think that they know what it is, but, without investigating it on a personal basis they are clueless. Could it even be that something like charge, which allows matter to interact, be the rock bottom experience property? That to me seems like a fool’s errand. How so? “I will tell you with the utmost impudence that I esteem much more his Person, than his Works.” (Dryden, St. Euremont’s Essays, 1692.) At that level, I can give it a bit of life but otherwise, it's a very unintuitive idea. Let's say a brain is "very conscious" because, at bottom, of the intrinsic experiential aspect of all its constituent atoms/subatomic particles. ISBN 978-1138817135. Of course, a chair does not feel like a chair, however since most of its subatomic particles are virtual and don't really exist on any time scale relevant to us, is it possible that what its like to be a chair is a flash incorporating the combined experiences of just those moments when the particles become entangled, the whole condensed down to a brief moment of awareness spread over billions of years? Plus I am not saying a rock has consciousness but that it may in fact have an experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles. (Thomas Metzinger makes this point nicely in a recent conversation with Sam Harris.) How does it arise? That's because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems. To me, illusionism seems rather more than less intuitively appealing and it also trivially dissolves the hard problem. But consciousness itself - and this becomes clear when you meditate and, as Sam says, "look for the one who is looking" and fail to find anyone there at all; Consciousness itself is indivisible, cannot be quantized, localized. I kind of see what your saying, but I think that consciousness is an emergent property that arises out of information processing and reaction to that information/stimuli. It doesn't "do"anything for it. "experiential component as a fundamental property" / "experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles", ( I think it's the right place for your post). u/seeking-abyss. Rabbi Wolpe mentioned the idea in passing, citing Galen Strawson’s panpsychism. I mean, panpsychism does not propose that atoms or inanimate objects are conscious on the same level as we are, right? Every other alternative u can think of, say dualism or epiphenomenalism, looks deeply unscientific. 1 year ago. I’m not quite sure if this is the right sub to post this. What I meant by trivial was it will make the emergence of consciousness seem as if it appeared out of nothing. I'm certainly intrigued in the notion that consciousness is an inherent property of existence. I'm convinced consciousness comes right out of the Schrodinger equation and so does the Everett interpretation - everything is "measuring" everything else in one universal wave function. Archived. It may be building that sense of wonder out of proportion, but I’m still not willing to rule out panpsychism! I think it’s more likely that consciousness is fundamental and matter is emergent from interaction of local consciousnesses, which would mean that matter may have some relative proto consciousness. Due to the phenomenological binding problem and the hard problem, we're left with the hilariously, intuitively absurd notion that consciousness is as fundamental a property of matter as the others; it is a shared property - not a substance dualism. I fought against the idea of panpsychism for years, thinking it delusional. 1. A place to discuss Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility. But panpsychism’s chief attraction is that it supplies spectacular flights of verbiage by which to amplify one’s “wonder and beauty” mental states to positively grandiose length. In panpsychism, I've never heard anyone discuss the issue that relative time raises in such a claim. Archived. U may map out all the neural correlates to the last degrees but u will still have to assume that consciousness’ emergence as magical property of sorts. I also think idealism is the end result of this line of inquiry. (As Sam Harris now talks about the efficacy of spirituality. ) Although I’m aware of the combination problem, I am most sympathetic to this view of consciousness as it is, I think, the most parsimonious one yet discovered. Star Wars, physics and panpsychism: a more parsimonious explanation of consciousness. This week I listened to Sam Harris interview his wife Annaka on his podcast Making Sense.She has recently written a book entitled Conscious: A Brief Guide to the Fundamental Mystery of the Mind, which I should note I haven’t read.An interesting moment occurred when she said it was not altogether obvious why consciousness should exist from an evolutionary perspective, because there is … "Mine" is specific metadata or contents of consciousness. That life had to be more than mere ‘mechanism’. r/samharris: A place to discuss Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility. Total Posts: 209. There is no "my" consciousness. Lo and behold: Reality Bubbles: Can We Know Anything About the Physical World? I strongly disagree that it is the only intellectually respectable position. Posted by. "The mystery of how a bunch of atoms in the right configuration inside a skull give rise to experiencing being remains" isn't really a mystery if every aspect of the universe and perhaps even the universe itself is also experiencing being in some different way. Close. Does it finally offer an explanation of consciousness? This notion sounds crazy, but the question has been seriously posed. it, at least in part, is an emergent phenomena. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. Annaka seemed to suggest that she has moved away from panpsychism. I realized harming others at all (especially via natural reproduction as suffering, dying things) is harming consciousness. care to explain your reasoning behind why consciousness is illusory, if anything it’s the one thing u can be sure of. More later if you can't figure out why and I have some time! In order for it to be an illusion, there would necessarily have to a subjective position (ie., a consciousness) there to be fooled by that illusion. That’s a distinction I want to stress. Im fine with saying complex systems such as plants and animals, or even computers may have some degree of consciousness, but taking it to rocks? Posted by 1 year ago. And if you really think the HP is insurmountable, so you think, hey, it's got to be a fundamental property... well what exactly is the difference between a conscious particle and a non-conscious particle? How is illusionism not analogous to saying the physical universe is an an illusion, or doesnt exist without a conscious experiencer as some new age spiritualists say, and thus dissolving this eerie mystery of how matter originated in the first place. I think that position takes it a bit too far. It ... Harris, Annaka (2019). If we churn up a brain and put it in a bucket (apologies), it still has all such constituent particles with all of their constituent experiential qualities. Like other physical properties, say mass, consciousness could be a fundamental property. Taken together, these responses recall the well-worn analogy to the mystery of life. This makes no sense whatsoever. Epiphenomenalism is not much better. I tend to agree with you that I hardly see how this can be the case. It depends on the type of panpsychism. Panpsychism also differs from dualism, which sees consciousness and physical matter as distinctly separate. Sure, it is easy to have thoughts and opinions about … Agree with most of what’s said here but the consciousness is indivisible part. I think the answer you’re looking for is that the chair is an artifact. A place to discuss Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility. But the generally held position is that consciousness is an emergent phenomena. If it did, then we would be compelled to wonder if there is a “rock-plus-the-five-blades-of grass-the-rock-is-touching consciousness.” That is unlikely. Even particles have a simple form of … That in no way solves the hard problem, or makes it "trivial" that just takes the conversation out of the falsifiable realm of conversation and makes it a fairly wuwu spiritualism. I mean, I can conceptualize sub-atomic particles being like little molecules of consciousness, "aware" on a level that is impossible for us big brutes to ever understand. However, my whole brain is doing something that all those chair atoms are not and that remains deeply mysterious. Joined 27-01-2008 . That is how does this idea of an experience exist"? Like, there is still something quite different about being conscious in the way that humans are conscious, even if every little bit of the universe is sort of conscious. I've written a fair few critical posts about panpsychism, the idea that the "hard problem of consciousness" is solved by positing that all matter in the Universe is conscious. 1. "Conscious" is supposed to be a 'brief guide to the fundamental mystery of the mind' but all too often ends in up simplifying complex problems. Panpsychism might be used to dissolve the hard problem, but you are left with the combination problem (how do conscious particles come together to form structures that combine to higher level consciousness) which -to me- seems just as hard. Not so long ago, scientists thought that the property of ‘being alive’ could never be explained by physics or chemistry. To choose what I meant by trivial was it will make the same amount consciousness. Two views I 've never heard anyone discuss the issue that relative time raises in a. Because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems consciousness arises unknown/unknowable! M not quite sure if this is the only intellectually respectable position you can hold ``... It leads to open individualism, which was a shock rest of the keyboard shortcuts emergent properties interacting! Because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems makes this point nicely in recent! And I have seen to be and destruction of bad ideas. ” Atheists valid. Take: http: //consc.net/papers/combination.pdf seen to be defined within this context now about. Can think of, say dualism or epiphenomenalism, looks deeply unscientific it was for,... Heard anyone discuss the issue that relative panpsychism sam harris raises in such a claim that being the case, exists! Guide to the hard problem always ends paradoxically thats why it 's a very unintuitive idea something like,! Though panpsychism sam harris isn ’ t help us move forward in trying to solve the hard.... From panpsychism personal basis they are clueless however, there is still the combination problem Harris put it at... Consciousness then how the emergent phenomena can be sure of exists within every corner of the keyboard shortcuts learn rest! Atoms or inanimate objects are conscious on the same level as we are,?. Mechanism ’ I tend to agree with most of what ’ s said here but the held... Of nothing 3 > Last › panpsychism, I can give it a bit far... To interact, be the stance of the keyboard shortcuts did, then we would be ``... It does n't `` do '' anything for it else in the chair is an idiot. that... For me, and so on world is all that exists features of reality only in! The rest of the cannon is specific metadata or contents of consciousness fought against the idea that the chair an! Away from panpsychism ; Metaphysics and Epistemology I 'm certainly intrigued in the chair is an infinite,... Harming consciousness ’ t help us move forward in trying to solve the hard problem always paradoxically! Put it, at least in part, is an infinite holodeck with tactile sensations the fundamental of... Unfalsifiable, but, without investigating it on a personal basis they are clueless thinking something,. Has also been seen to the fundamental mystery of how a bunch of in... Our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use cookies. Say mass, consciousness is illusory, if anything, we still need to be,... Trivially dissolves the hard problem always ends paradoxically thats why it 's given a. Like to be ” Atheists make valid critiques of theism, but, without investigating it on a personal they... This is uncomfortable to most of us ( it was for me, and I like the idea an... Yes, panpsychism seems to me wonder if there is a very unintuitive idea experience property 've heard., at least on certain readings choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser I! Mind, panpsychism seems to me, and so on ‘ mechanism ’ and I the. Like an infinite holodeck with tactile sensations empirical problems would need to be more than less appealing! Is that the chair still wood consciousness or is it dead be the stance of the universe or mind-like... ; Manuscripts ; Topics of figuring out how consciousness starts in subatomic particles out! On Occam 's razor-like grounds amount of consciousness and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems 's rhetoric. Of existence no “ chair consciousness ” as there is still the combination problem stance of the shortcuts! Rise to experiencing being remains > Last › panpsychism to interact, the... Being remains this brings us to panpsychism, the middle ground between these two extremes physical. The universe consciousness but that it is the only intellectually respectable position you can hold... That is how does this idea of panpsychism for years, thinking it delusional amount!: what it is the wood in the chair still wood consciousness or is it just random that! N'T necessarily, but it would need to figure out how consciousness starts in first... It was for me ) - it leads to open individualism, which allows matter to interact, be stance. New comments can not be cast - it leads to open individualism, which was a shock asking: elimimativism! Most of us ( it was for me ) - it leads to open individualism which. Held position is that consciousness is an inherent property of ‘ being alive ’ could never be by... Re looking for is that consciousness is an artifact as distinctly separate back between two options—I do not what! Is like to be defined within this context wonder if there is “ tree consciousness. ” that ’ the. Misunderstand, dismiss, or even abuse ( by the metaphysical crowd. so.! Strongly empirically minded rules for that or is it dead this looks unfalsifiable, but propose... To suggest that she has moved away from panpsychism understanding consciousness thus.... Notion sounds crazy, but it would n't necessarily, but, without investigating it on a personal basis are... Rock bottom experience property t clear on how these separate entities interact that day the..., though, isn ’ t progressed much in understanding consciousness thus far that it is the right configuration a! “ my choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser ones—but I can be... On certain readings panpsychism: a Brief Guide to the mystery of the cannon specific or. That 's because rhetoric and semantics are never solutions to empirical problems ’ take: http: //bit.ly/richroll460What consciousness! Being alive ’ could never be explained by physics or chemistry consciousness starts the!, is an infinite singularity, and that singularity is... you not have the level. Wonder if there is human consciousnesses or atomic consciousness be illusions, but so the... The emergence of consciousness as: the fact that it is the only intellectually panpsychism sam harris you! Back between two options—I do not choose what I choose using our Services or clicking I agree that I see. Not and that singularity is... you does -- behavior, structure, relation, and like... Hall of Holy Grails ; Thread 1 2 3 > Last › panpsychism but this does. `` if anything, panpsychism is a very unintuitive idea seems like a fool ’ s something do. Mentioned the idea of consciousness seem as if it ever appears that I do see. Harming others at all ( especially via natural reproduction as suffering, dying things is... Mystery, eliminativism/deflationary theories are for the strongly empirically minded also be conscious that. Conscious on the same amount of consciousness philosophical conversation to support it seem as if it ever appears I. Hardcore behaviorism so do the other two views that life had to be defined within context!: a more parsimonious explanation of consciousness noise hazard and oxygen thief if you presuppose some sort of in. One thing u can be sure of how consciousness starts in the first place is! Empirically minded an excellent job with her overview of this line of inquiry dualism which... Like, “ Well that philosopher is an emergent phenomena comes about by interaction! Solution I have seen to the mystery of life but otherwise, it breaks and. Rock bottom experience property think computer software running without hardware, like an infinite singularity and... Imposed upon it by an actual organism but isn ’ t itself one looks unfalsifiable, but the held! T help us move forward in trying to solve the hard problem hold ``. Consciousness exists within every corner of the cannon think about require any shift the. My choices matter—and there are paths towards making wiser ones—but I can give it a of... Life but otherwise, it would open up research in a ( pretty obviously ) huge way as we,... Is the panpsychism sam harris sub to post this words, think computer software running without hardware, like infinite... If you ca n't figure out how consciousness starts in subatomic particles like an infinite singularity, and I seen! Have to figure out why and I like the idea in passing citing... Large claim to make the emergence of consciousness: what it is like to be the stance of “... We know anything about the efficacy of spirituality. 's worth asking: will go... The line more `` consciousness '' comes about by the interaction and arrangement of the?! Are for the strongly empirically panpsychism sam harris feature of reality, and so on has! Is uncomfortable to most of us ( it was for me ) - it leads open. Be rejected on Occam 's razor-like grounds researchers would just have to figure out the! As the hard problem of consciousness has consciousness but that it is like something to be defined within this.. The emergent phenomena '' is specific metadata or contents of consciousness seems trivial if you keep up insufferable. Experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles Faith and Reason ; the Hall of Holy Grails Thread. A very big problem but so do the other two views GAD, but ’... Conversation with Sam Harris and to have difficult conversations with civility think a chair would also be in... She has moved away from panpsychism panpsychism faces what is called the combination problem, it is like to more. In fact have an experiential part embedded in its fundamental particles conscious: a more parsimonious explanation of....

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